The Last Dance Episode 7 & 8 happened this past weekend, having a rating of five million viewers, every episode so far has given revelations and cleared up some questions about certain story lines.
Here are some points of episode 7 & 8:
- the recap of the tragic death of Jordan’s father
- While there has long been a desire among conspiracy theorists to portray Jordan’s retirement as a secret 18-month suspension ordered by David Stern, The Last Dance discussed why that proposition doesn’t make sense.
- laying on the floor after winning his fourth championship was tough.
– Jordan bullied Scott Burrell, trash talked Scottie Pippen and punched Steve Kerr, sporting an extreme competitiveness on a constant basis. Jordan’s leadership can be questioned. - “I wanted them to understand what it felt like to be in the trenches. And if you don’t understand, then you’re not gonna respond when the war starts.”-Michael Jordan on his rationale behind tough love with teammates
- working out his muscles for baseball and his return to basketball
- Jordan laughing at Gary Payton was pretty funny
“A lot of people backed down to Mike. I didn’t.” Payton’s remark concerned the 1996 NBA Finals, where Payton’s defensive play in Game 4 prevented the Bulls from sweeping the Sonics. Jordan clearly wasn’t impressed. We see him laughing out loud as he watched Payton insist that his defensive play “took a toll” on Jordan. “The Glove,” Jordan mused. “I had no problem with the Glove. I had no problem with Gary Payton.” - Jordan’s experience in Space Jam,
Jordan conducted pickup games at Warner Bros. Studios with other NBA players that would go to 9 or 10 p.m. The best of all—he used the time to take notes on his competitors. - So if the baseball strike in 1995 didn’t happen … would Michael Jordan have continued with baseball?
- Scottie Pippen doubling down on refusing to go back into the game after Phil Jackson called the final play for Toni Kukoc. Pippen was a great great player but that was lame and still is.
- Has Scottie Pippen been portrayed as a bad guy in The Last Dance?
Sitting out during a Knicks Playoff game because Kukoc was going to take the last shot, Pippen sitting out during the first half of the last season, The series also covers Pippen’s migraine that limited him against the Detroit Pistons in Game 7 of the 1990 Eastern Conference Finals.
Transcript
Santiago Leon
Sports cast may 12 2020 if you haven’t yet, please subscribe on all our channels, YouTube, Periscope and iTunes. And if you’re on iTunes, please leave a rating and review. It will help us out tremendously. And visit us on the sports cast dotnet the sports cast dotnet today’s sponsor is is the Bible app, Cray vs in pictures. You could download the app in the Apple iOS store. Last Dance Episode Seven, eight this past weekend, had a rating had a huge viewership about 5 million viewers. Every episode so far has given us revelations And cleared up some questions about certain storylines and here to join us to flesh this out. They don’t have Coronavirus Victor roadshow and Justin Riley. Welcome to the sports cast.
Justin Riley
Man well I’m the Coronavirus
Victor Arocho
I don’t know whether I had enough but I’m sure I got enough stuff in me that died.
Santiago Leon
That’s the spirit. That’s the spirit. The moon. Well, Victor, we haven’t seen you in a quite a month. Tell us how has this whole? Well, most of April and half of maintenance for you so far.
Victor Arocho
As it relates to business personal, that’s a little bit of
Santiago Leon
both whenever you feel entitled to to talk about.
Justin Riley
Well, I miss you, man. So I know exactly why you think.
Victor Arocho
Well, I’ve been fortunate, you know, it’s sad that you know, my wife and I you know, you know how my business and my wife’s still working. But, uh, you know, my kids are home and it’s kind of difficult for them, they’re getting restless. So I’m at least enjoying some, like weekends with them. So I’m actually enjoying the family playing games and, you know, spending a lot more time together than we normally would you know, my son just graduated college, so he might have been off and running. And then, you know,
Santiago Leon
was that we just missed you. I Victor.
Victor Arocho
I’ve been really busy. No. Our target audience, our clients are in the West Coast. So two to three hour times where I was a little bit.
Santiago Leon
We’re losing a little bit if we continue to hear it. We’ll probably call you your direct line. Justin Riley, tell us how how was your week?
Justin Riley
Well, not much of happened just yet. Two days removed from the last dance. Another great pairing of episodes. And man, I’m pretty excited about what I’m learning, man. I feel like I’m watching. That era happened before my eyes all over again, just in a different light. So I’m pretty excited about what, Victor before we dive in, what do you think about this series so far?
Victor Arocho
Oh my god. I started watching it again. That’s how good it is between between Colby, you know, God rest his soul, and the stuff here and the last dance. It has motivated me beyond belief. It’s brought me back to like when I was in college, really, even more. I mean, it’s really been fantastic. And I love that my kids are watching it. Even my daughter, you know, because now they get to know who Michael Jordan wants. I mean, I’ve run into Scottie Pippen several times Miami, and he’s awesome. But I think it’s been incredible for
Santiago Leon
losing again. Yeah, I’ll definitely for sure would jump on what Victor said. Yeah, I think it really motivated me so far. It’s really, you know, put that competitive spirit in me. Of course, we saw with Kobe, but we’ve seen more with Michael Jordan. Let’s dive in. Obviously, the episodes were two were two hours long together in total. The main thing I got was the recap of the tragic death of Jordans father. We found out that Michael Jordan was very close with his father. We knew that but we saw a little bit more closer. Justin, I can tell us a little bit about your thoughts about that.
Justin Riley
Well, it was just an incredible tragedy is just complete shock. When we heard it, I remember when I was young, and I heard the news and I was just blown away and it’s something that just kind of changed the face of sports as we know it because ultimately led Michael Jordan to take a step away from the game. And in doing so, it took a breath out of us. I don’t know if venture can agree with that, but it just changed everything dramatically. And it’s the way it happened. You kind of sit there and think how in the world happened to a good man. I call that the Michael Jordan was just amazing. Naturally begin to understand what he was going through unless you experienced it yourself. But one thing that was kind of mad about was that the press the media is still bringing up the gambling issue.
Santiago Leon
Yeah, we’ll get to that first. We’ll get to that next. Viktor Jordan’s father, obviously you can remember these days a little bit more than we do. But will you surprise how closer that Michael was with his father.
Victor Arocho
No, I wasn’t surprised because I grew up in that era. Right. And so I could tell you this though I was in I was in when I found out. I didn’t see sports for a while I was in Italy. Why? So? I was in Lake Como Italy, and then we went down to Napoli. But we crossed over to us to sweet Switzerland. And I believe it’s Switzerland or Sweden. But yes, Switzerland, Switzerland. And I haven’t seen sports. I’m over in another country. We’re doing too much. And then all of a sudden, I see a front page. Michael Jordan’s father killed. I’m like, this is the Enquirer doing stuff like that.
Santiago Leon
Yeah, so put this in context. This happened right after they won the third championship. The first three peat, um, let’s go into this whole conspiracy theory that people have been talking about for a couple years. Well, we’ll start with Victor. Of course, there was rumors that David Stern suspended Michael Jordan for eight years. Two months, but the documentary kind of flesh it out that it wasn’t. Do you believe that?
Victor Arocho
Wait, wait a second premises? What was his thought? Oh, well, but
Santiago Leon
we’ll return. Well, any final thoughts about his father?
Victor Arocho
It’s tragic. I mean, you know, I’m fortunate enough to have my dad, he’s 85 he’s still living. I’m fortunate enough that my mom was 79 when she passed, and then, you know, just got a treasure. You mean, stuff like that could just happen in any given notice. And it was just, to me, it was tragic. You know, a guy just fully overtired. And it was just, it was, it was terrible.
Justin Riley
Just amazing. To see. I mean, I don’t mean to interrupt. It was amazing to see that. The toll it took on Jordan, you know, here’s Michael Jordan, you know, God has similar seemingly vincible this larger life, you know, deity in sports, and all of a sudden he suddenly looks human. And it just took something out of him that we hadn’t seen before, you know, is he’s going through a lot of adversity both on and off the court, but nothing like this, you know that his dad was, you know, his angel on his shoulder, his rock, that guy, that constant just kept him going and just motivated him and just like any great boxer with an amazing trainer, that that’s kind of what Michael had with his father. And when that was taken away, it’s just like, it killed a piece of him and I just couldn’t get over just seeing personally when I was coming up seeing what it did to him. I just had never seen Michael that boy before.
Santiago Leon
So let me put this in context. This happened after the three peat during the three peat It was during the playoffs with the New York Knicks. Michael Jordan, I think it was before game For that Michael Jordan went to Atlantic City to gamble and his that went with him. We could touch on that a little bit about that series because they went through it. Victor, how serious was that back then when Michael went to Atlantic City, a couple, like one day before game for
Victor Arocho
Okay, let me just clear this up. Oh my jersey boy. Okay, so I’ve gone to Atlantic City back when I had no dollars. I drive down to Atlantic City with $20 with a friend of mine, gamble a little bit, have some fun and drive back. And I was not even close to 1% of an athlete that Michael Jordan was so
Justin Riley
to me jerseys, tiny.
Victor Arocho
I mean, it’s a small state. Take it two hours, two and a half depending how fast it’s not that far. To me. It wasn’t a big deal. And it’s Atlantic city’s in Jersey, you know, it’s uh, you know, at that time, Trump was Trying to rival Las Vegas.
Santiago Leon
Victor? Just what if that happened today for the NBA? How much of that would have been a big deal?
Justin Riley
Well, it’s only gonna be a big deal because the media wants it to seem like it’s a big deal and that’s ultimately what it was back then. You no big deal. Michael Jordan, his dad just decided to escape all the mayhem and all the pressure of the playoffs at that time and and wanted to go have a little little fun. It was nothing more, nothing less. But of course, the media had to blow it up and make it more of a story than it actually was. And the only reason why I got so much attention was because it was Michael Jordan it is because it was this legendary athletic figure, but had been anybody else no big deal. And that’s pretty much all there was to it was pretty risky. It’s a
Victor Arocho
great, it’s not a long drive. I mean, he’s done a while. It’s not a long drive. I mean, there’s no place in Florida where we’re at that doesn’t take an hour to go. So just add one more hour to it. It’s not that far it wasn’t a big deal. Like he said, and think about it. Michael didn’t drinking and smoking do anything back then he didn’t smoke cigars, though,
Santiago Leon
did they? They they this year.
Justin Riley
What it was is the media was just trying to find something. I’ll end on this see this choirboy that was negative, so they could put something on paper.
Santiago Leon
And also go ahead and make their
Victor Arocho
it’s just not even worth it. I mean, to me, I just think that it was a it’s no big deal. And and you know, as you see in this series, you know, don’t piss him off.
Justin Riley
I know, I know, we’ll get to that. We’ll
Santiago Leon
get to that.
Victor Arocho
Um, I mean, he, he created stuff just to piss himself off. So I mean, so I mean, that was just dumb.
Santiago Leon
So, pretty much the next segment was, you know, there’s been questions about Michael having a gambling problem. But Michael says he just had a competitive problem. We thought about that, Victor.
Victor Arocho
Well, I do know I don’t want to go that because I don’t know Michael but he is the ultimate competitor. Right? And, and he’s got the money to do it. Right. It’s all relative. You know, I mean, so I mean, he’s the ultimate competitor. He wants to win. So it’s see people confuse that he’s a gambler. Yeah, he is. But he doesn’t just gamble. Like, let me like a gambler that’s addicted that just goes to the casinos and wins and loses he Gamble’s on anything and everything. He’ll gamble whether he can get you to closest putt, he’ll gamble you on a shot like that McDonald’s commercial remember Larry Bird and Magic Johnson up in the rafters. I mean, so his was really competitive compared to a rather a person who has a gambling addiction. That person is betting on race horses, they’re going to understand there’s a big difference.
Santiago Leon
Justin worried thoughts about this? I mean of course we’ve been here I’ve heard over the years about Michael having a gambling issue but
Victor Arocho
to answer that
Santiago Leon
well my opinion I mean um he had a he had a competitor there’s
Victor Arocho
a difference between a gambling problem and I’m gonna bet you that I couldn’t you know hold my breath longer I’m gonna bet you that I guess it’s…yeah
Santiago Leon
I don’t know cuz Michael like was wearing sunglasses during that Rashad Hamada interview, or my Rashad and win.
Justin Riley
Let me ask you something Santiago, this would have been anybody else would this have been a big deal?
Santiago Leon
No. I mean, if this was like Scott Burrell, no one cared.
Victor Arocho
I think you I got the point that it’s not it could have been areas. I think we’re all agree on that. The only thing that from my perspective of liking Jordan now Because I hated him since I was a Knicks fan, but is the fact that there’s there’s a massive difference between someone who’s who’s addicted to gambling and someone who’s addicted to competition. And he has that it’s like me, it’s like if we play a game and it’s just for fun, it’s okay to have fun. But if now someone’s talking smack, or we put money on it, my game changes
Santiago Leon
we’ll go with that issue. There was been has been conspiracy theories because of Michael Jordan’s gamble issue and because and also because of that event, him going to Atlantic City, that David Stern suspended him from the game of basketball or from like the NBA. But of course Michael Jordan says he did not and you know, went on to play baseball. Um, Justin, are you pretty much in peace that you know, stern denied, suspended Jordan for gambling?
Justin Riley
Absolutely. There’s no merit to whatsoever just based on what we just talked about. We just went on pretty good ran that explain that. But then to look at it from a marketing standpoint, and David Stern would have suspended his biggest moneymakers. What would that done to the league financially?
Santiago Leon
Yeah, this is when it makes sense for starting to do it.
Victor Arocho
Right after his dad died, I mean, come on.
Justin Riley
Like he left the game because he was trying to escape something he shared from his dad because it was way too painful for him to continue to play that game. That thing he shared with him that was so precious, because every time you pick up a basketball that point until you have a piece of themselves. That’s what he came to his mind the image of his dad, and he has had to separate himself for a little bit of a sabbatical, if you will, to try to overcome that he couldn’t have kept continue to own playing straight through it. That’s exactly
Santiago Leon
what if it was true.
Victor Arocho
They wouldn’t It also could have been a topic that did come up. I mean, cuz we really don’t know you weren’t there. That could also then also push this button. I don’t need this anymore. You’re gonna give me crap. My dad just died. All I did and you’re giving me crap that my dad died and the person I went with was my dad that may have triggered him even more emotionally Okay, goodbye.
Santiago Leon
He also did like one year before he said that he wanted to play baseball. When they asked him during like the Olympics in Barcelona, and he was he was hungry to go play baseball, but he said he would not do it then, because he wanted to win three championships and beat Magic Johnson and Larry Bird.
Justin Riley
Yeah, absolutely. I think that in the back of his mind, he wanted wins championships. And he I think he wanted to go back to baseball, because we just said earlier, his competitive nature he wanted to prove to himself that he could dominate in another arena. So I think that kind of enticed him a little bit to try the baseball Victor?
Victor Arocho
Yeah, I just think he needed a distraction. It was just too much coming in, you know,
Santiago Leon
battles, but his ongoing battles with Jerry Krause as well. I mean, he didn’t want he didn’t want to deal with all that he had to escape. And think about he was very tired after win three championships. And of course the question is What have I actually want to accept? Probably accept towards the end. So he enters baseball. Join us the White Sox, which now we know is the same owner as the Chicago Bulls. So it was kind of easy transition. He had to go to the minor league baseball. And he plays for the Birmingham Barents. He obviously, we found out that he had to get his body fit for baseball. So he had to get it from a basketball body to a baseball body, Justin, you know a little bit, a whole lot about weight training. Tell us about that experience. Was that a revelation for you?
Justin Riley
Well, no, not at all. different sports require you to be in different shape physiologically. What you how you train for football is not gonna necessarily translate over to basketball or baseball. So yeah, he had to completely transform everything he was doing to accommodate the new sport he was picking up,
Santiago Leon
Victor. When he went to baseball, were you interested in seeing him baseball or you didn’t much care about it?
Justin Riley
Um
Victor Arocho
I can I can answer that. One. Part of me didn’t care about it. But the part of me that did was had a hat. I happen to have a shout out to my buddy Jose DeLeon. He was a pitcher for the White Sox. Right. So I was fortunate enough to go out to Tampa to see him and but some other friends from Jersey and Michaels was over there. So it was pretty exciting. I mean, there’s a lot of people there. And he gave me a great story about him. So if you want to hear it, I’ll tell you, but for me, it was like now my Knicks can win and then they go and they lose against us. Yeah,
Santiago Leon
we’ll get to that as well. Um, when Michael Jordan was gone, they go into the hole of the bulls, you know, like we’re going on a good run. And then they get into Scottie Pippen little bit which I’ve been hearing people have been saying this documentary has been negative towards Scottie Pippen. And for this episode he set out on the last shot the coach made to win the game or I think they lost the game. I can’t remember who won. They won, which Victor knows about. I’m with we thought, I mean, Scottie Pippen hasn’t given him a negative role here. Justin
Justin Riley
is what’s the question
Santiago Leon
has this documentary given Scottie Pippen a negative view of him, you know, first was him sitting out on the last season like the like the very first half and then he sat out like the last place against the New York Knicks
Justin Riley
make if you wanted to truly see that perception you kind of do. I don’t know, necessarily if this was meant to, I guess demonize him. Because basically what I’m getting from the documentary in relation to starring Scottie Pippen was he was greatly underpaid. He was undervalued, and he wasn’t
Santiago Leon
getting what he deserved, which Victor knew about that before this documentary happened.
Justin Riley
Right? No year and yeah, that’s, that’s one of the things that I’ve been enlightened to this documentary was, I had no idea as to his struggles with the bulls financially and all the chaos that was going on due to that. And I had no idea about the animosity that was being stirred because of it. So this has given me a completely different perspective on that bulls team. But you know, at first I kind of got The feeling that hey Scotty was kind of selfish, but in the grand scheme of things, he really wasn’t, you know, he was a team player, but at the end of the day, he really had to make it about him at some point because, like I said, Man, he just wasn’t getting as do.
Victor Arocho
Well, yeah, I mean, first of all to couple things, right? You know, Jackson, you know, you’re down and it’s a few seconds left. And if Mike was there, Michael get the ball. Right, number one, number two, but also as a coach just trying to think of plays that you’ve used before. Right, man, you’re gonna move them they are gonna do that. But in scotties defense, though, for me, you know, they made it all the way to the conference finals, dude, without Jordan. I
Santiago Leon
actually really like the semi finals semi finals.
Victor Arocho
No, I think they made to the cut to eat the Eastern Conference Finals. I’ll prove it. I’ll prove it to you. Right, I’ll find out but But anyways, My point being My point being you Though between him being underpaid between him carrying that team without a mega superstar, right, Scotty broke out. Okay, and then not giving him the chance to win the game, I think, you know, I could see it under me there’s so many things that went in those circumstances that, you know, I think he, you know, I wouldn’t have you know, the team could say whatever they want, but, you know, he was like the highest paid guy on the team, but he was the number two guy and in that case, he was still number one. He was making less than car which he didn’t do it for that he did it because he was pissed because he felt he should have the last shot. And I always believe give your best player the ball when you need it, period, win or lose what your best player
Santiago Leon
seen from Wikipedia. It was a semi final series. So
Victor Arocho
so it was the pre it was before the conference finals.
Santiago Leon
Now, one thing that I’ve always heard that after Michael Jordan left, that bulls team ran the triangle offense pretty perfect. Victor, was this Chicago team poised to go to the NBA Finals? Or you know, they just the Knicks were just that good.
Victor Arocho
You’re talking about without Jordan Yeah. Where are they place to go to the finals? Yeah, I mean, did they have that strength? Or do you think
Santiago Leon
they would have not a one that’s like the finals if it wasn’t for the Knicks?
Victor Arocho
No, man cuz, you know, first of all, the Knicks were tough and and remember the Houston one back to back. So, you know, there was good, there were two good teams. And you know, there’s got to be some mental effect on players when you’re one of the greatest players in the world walks away, you know, and yet you still are. But there’s a point where I mean, that would have been their fourth straight and and like you said,
Santiago Leon
Justice Yeah, that’s my question. Jordan was there.
Santiago Leon
Wood had Jordan and that bulls team beat the Houston Rockets. Justin. I’m sorry, Justin.
Justin Riley
Oh, if they had Jordan, yeah.
Santiago Leon
Would have been I
Justin Riley
will tell you. If they didn’t have Jordan they wouldn’t have beaten rockets. Rockets team was pretty incredible. Shout out to my boy Robert, or a big shot Bob.
Victor Arocho
That’s one of my favorite players.
Justin Riley
My favorite of all time
Victor Arocho
he’s got seven rings.
Justin Riley
Oh
Santiago Leon
Doesn’t mean he’s the best.
Justin Riley
Oh yeah. Boom Alabama. Got to roll him But with Jordan the bulls would have been competitive and yeah they I think they would have won but there’s no way with that and they would have they would have stood a chance
Santiago Leon
it would have been interesting because and like Luke Longley would have gone against ology one
Justin Riley
one
Santiago Leon
which
Justin Riley
and
Victor Arocho
Drexler Kenny jet Smith they had Robert or I mean they were stacked
Santiago Leon
and there was that interesting mentioned a little bit harder than Utah.
Justin Riley
They didn’t have drinks left first year but they were still pretty powerful and then there’s no way there’s no way you put Luc Longley against the chemo laws you want expected results just wasn’t gonna happen. You know, it’s funny.
Victor Arocho
Let’s be crystal clear, though. Okay. JOHN Starks had his worst game and the Knicks shot the worst free throw shooting of any NBA team in history. So if they would have just shot normally they would have been the champions.
Justin Riley
I remember it. Well, beta has actually flown to the Knicks and that series that
Victor Arocho
number starts with like two four or something. Three points. And how
Justin Riley
often did that happen that day? Never.
Victor Arocho
Look at the stats on Diego go see what their free throw percentage was. It was disgusting, which that’s
Santiago Leon
for which, for which game?
Victor Arocho
You either look at starts shooting and look at for the final velocity. Okay for the last game was I will start shooting record and the foul for free throw shooting.
Santiago Leon
Okay, I’ll get to that. So back to Jordan. He played baseball throughout 94 through 94 and then 95 a baseball strike happen that that would pause Michael Jordan’s baseball career. And one of the managers that was interviewed during the documentary said if there was no strike, Michael would have gone to the Major League Baseball. Justin, were you surprised about that?
Justin Riley
Well, not at all. Michael Jordan was the ultimate competitor and even though the first campaign will only campaign was baseball career. He didn’t really have stats that really just jumped out at you off the page. But if Michael would have been able to continue to perfect his craft baseball, yeah, absolutely. The guy’s one of the greatest athletes in the world. There’s no way that you could have told me that he would have eventually made it to the major leagues, and is the guy that was insane about improving himself. minute after minute, it was a passion. It was an obsession. So Michael would have found some way to be able to dominate the game of baseball, which I’ve been reading. He has 50 rb eyes in a season. That’s pretty impressive for any baseball player.
Santiago Leon
And for basketball, as well. And it was funny because I’m not sure this is kind of strange, because I heard that if this baseball strike would have not have happened, Michael Jordan would not have come back that season.
Justin Riley
Quite possibly. You know, Michael, at that point was starting to, you know, get ready. Do
Santiago Leon
you think so? Just
Victor Arocho
Yeah, for sure.
Santiago Leon
Justin,
Victor Arocho
sorry, Justin, you’re saying I don’t mean to cut you
Justin Riley
off. I’m just saying you know, at that point you could argue probably would have stayed because he was starting to catch his his swing if you if you will, and was begin to really show that he could hang there. But ultimately, I think that the edge of the NBA would have been a much stronger calling than baseball.
Santiago Leon
Also, I noticed and I realized it today actually, that if Scott Burrell did not invite him for breakfast, and then invited him to go to practice with the bowls. Jordan when would have not come back either. Julian was coming back.
Justin Riley
The stone is no way.
Victor Arocho
He’s, he loves the bowls. He saw how well they did. Scotty was calling him out. Yes. Thank you just
Justin Riley
you know, you know Seeing the state and the state they’re in that that had to tug at Jordan’s pride so yeah cuz I was
Santiago Leon
team that year was not that good. There were like in like the mid table Lord table position. Justin
Justin Riley
I agree with that because yeah, absolutely because because they traded out Horace grant
Santiago Leon
yes and I was very appreciative that of that, you know, when I was pulling for the magic at that day that eventually got the tracking company to the finals would and they turn around and got skunked by the Rockets who won’t talk about it team stack team. So Victor Jordan decides to come back. They invited him of course you mentioned about Scottie Pippen, that one scene where he pulls up the sneaker, which he was wearing a George, which Scottie Pippen was was wearing a Air Jordan sneaker, and he points to the camera and says, Jordan, come back with his finger. That was amazing.
Victor Arocho
I loved it. With Air Jordans on.
Santiago Leon
That was classic. Um, when Jordan came back, Victor was that huge sports news back then. I mean, I’m sure you were back from Italy. By then huge.
Victor Arocho
It was, I mean, not for me because the Knicks were in the championship. I didn’t care about anything else.
Santiago Leon
Well, I mean, this is like 95. This is 1995. When he came back, he, it was like, around like March 10 or March 18. That he fax the bulls, and like he was gonna write some long PR release. And then he just said, I’m back. And that was sports history right there. So he comes back, Justin, he has to get back in shape. So he hires his strength coach, and once again, he needs to build a chest and also built arms. You’re not surprised about that?
Justin Riley
Not at all.
Victor Arocho
I’ll let Justin go for a second. So you let him talk. So I got I need a break on. Okay. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Oh, keep going that way. You’re just
Santiago Leon
I believe Victor went out for a bit. Okay, go ahead.
Justin Riley
Well, yeah, he had actually changed the physiology of everything in order to be able to compete in that sport. But how did he couldn’t he didn’t have enough time to really make that transition fast enough to be able to do what he was. He was used to do. You’re playing basketball so that that’s why his transition back to basketball was a little frustrating to watch and a lot slower than you had hoped. But he was still such a dang good athlete that his second
Santiago Leon
game back he scored 55 points
Justin Riley
less because he was a master Square Garden.
Santiago Leon
And you know, which is interesting, because they featured his strength coach, which is Tim Grover. He’s been in almost every episode.
Victor Arocho
Yeah, but that dude, I’m gonna give him a credit. I read his book. You need to read his book relentless. It is phenomenal.
Santiago Leon
Which I believe Justin Riley knows about the about him a little bit right? It’s phenomenal.
Justin Riley
I don’t tell you man, the strength conditioning coach is the single most important coach on any staff anywhere. I know it didn’t get the job done get the glamour, that a big name head coach would. But man I tell you, it’s so cool and a team success.
Victor Arocho
Well, you know, in his book, Jordan goes, Grover says that Jordan told me he goes well, you know why I hired you? Right? Because Yeah, cuz I don’t want you to train anybody else. That’s why I pay you what I pay you. And he was just trying to get anybody on the bowls. He was trying to get anyone he never thought he’d get Jordan.
Santiago Leon
So, so then, Michael Jordan make it to the playoffs with the Bulls in 1995 playoffs were in the fifth position. They go to the semi finals. Against Orlando Magic a stack was shocked with effort the hard way.
Justin Riley
Nick Anderson, Nick Anderson
Santiago Leon
and Horace grant and the series went like wasn’t a sweep I think it was for one or for two and after like their last game where they got like, eliminated he contacts Tim Grover let’s go work out you know, let’s get ready for like next season and then Tim Grover x Michael. When tomorrow
Justin Riley
Yeah, tomorrow
Santiago Leon
Justin. Hey never give up
Justin Riley
quit Michael Jordan and like we talked about our hidden it hinted a little bit about earlier is the worst thing that can happen is this and Michael Jordan off. That always awakens this beast deep inside him and brother is just a whole nother animal that comes out and he was ready to go to work. And if he couldn’t, he probably would have done it. Right after that.
Santiago Leon
Yeah, which Orlando to pitch cago for the two. That was the year when Indiana beat the Knicks for three with Reggie Miller being the the, the assassin was, which was a very good series and then of course Atlanta, went to the NBA Finals got killed by Houston. For
Justin Riley
magic fan back then I was very, very mad.
Santiago Leon
Yeah, so then let’s dive into the summertime. He prepares but also needs to shoot a movie, Victor called Space Jam, which you probably heard of. And it came out and he told Warner Brothers, hey, if I want to shoot this movie, I need a basketball court. And they took care of it. And he had a practice like every night, nba stars will come and play a pickup game. You saw Pat QE saw Dennis Rodman abolish chris wallace when we thought about that scene
Victor Arocho
One hour, boys that was so that must and there was no rest. So you know there’s a Bing was playing the you know they were throwing bolts I mean they’re no refs bodies
Justin Riley
wish we could have seen some footage of that call yeah
Santiago Leon
and Exactly. And of course he got himself ready to to bring on the second three peat. Um, let’s I
Victor Arocho
think that’s another reason they always talk about LeBron and him. I think that’s another reason why he’s beloved because you know, he’s on a set and he calls out all these pro players that he plays against. And when he plays against them, he wants to annihilate them. But then you know when he’s not playing against him, those guys come on over. You don’t I mean, I mean, even Armstrong but he pissed Armstrong pista mavi invited him out for breakfast BJ
Santiago Leon
Armstrong.
Victor Arocho
Yeah, I hated that guy. He’s killed the Knicks
Santiago Leon
which he went to Charlotte afterwards
Victor Arocho
and dude he still looks like a baby.
Santiago Leon
He does. He hasn’t an age. I’ve noticed that right? Justin
Victor Arocho
was like 14 when he was playing against the Knicks
Justin Riley
as gracefully as he does.
Victor Arocho
My God, that guy’s incredible.
Santiago Leon
So then we fast forward to the finals against Seattle. Of course, the bulls had a 72 10th season. And they’re up three Oh, against the Seattle Seahawks. Seahawks kennel Sonics, which had Gary Payton
Justin Riley
strength and will john Camp The Rain Man.
Santiago Leon
And then that moment, with Gary Payton the glove that Gary Payton said, Well, I like George Karl did not let me play against
Victor Arocho
As a stupid move, I mean, hindsight. 2020 you don’t I mean, but you know, you knew what you were getting in Jordan. Let’s just put it this way. When the Knicks plate, the bulls, right? There’s no doubt I knew Pippin. And I knew Jordan. We’re gonna get theirs. We just had to make sure the other guys didn’t get theirs. Right. So if when if you look at the numbers when Ryman scored like eight or nine points, they blew teams out. Yeah, just eight or nine points. Okay. So, you know, and then you have the best player you know, I would put my star against the star. I mean, he was he literally messed up because he must. He was thinking that let’s see if we get a Gary you got to outscore him that’s just a stupid move. Words. Look what happened when he put them on him? They went to straight Yeah, it was too hard. You’re not gonna be the bulls for straight no friggin way.
Santiago Leon
So Gary Payton said there the documentary says a lot of people back down to Mike and so he played you know write a guest and made him tired or we thought about that quote Justin
Justin Riley
well we all saw the result of it did Michael Jordan look tired you know
Santiago Leon
wear them down a little bit right make
Justin Riley
as much as anybody could do which you know game paid and all due respect you the glove was one of the best defensive players to ever graced the court. But even gay Payton in all his glory couldn’t slow down Jordan least
Santiago Leon
while they’re there. Peyton says that it took a toll on Jordan. It took they
Victor Arocho
won two games when they switch the strategy,
Santiago Leon
but you can’t win more than two.
Justin Riley
Yeah, they won two games but a little too late and all due respect.
Victor Arocho
But that’s but that’s my point, though. I mean, I’m all I’m saying is that it was too late. You can’t go down three zero and next. Back to GM back again to Jordan. And when four straight is never gonna happen, that was just a stupid move. He should have put Gary on them right away. Number one, number two, you can’t be a two time two time Defensive Player of the Year in the NBA and act like you know, these other guys weren’t at Jordans level, but they are pretty good.
Santiago Leon
Not good. Not
Victor Arocho
good enough for him to be that good of a defensive player. He wasn’t backing down from anybody. I don’t care who he is. So the thing was that he had some logic on there, right? It’s like Deion Sanders was What’s his name? Michael Irvin. You put your best defensive player, best receiver, but
Santiago Leon
like they also mentioned that Chicago kind of lacks like they couldn’t sweep that series because they usually thought of we won this already. Without the case Justin Are you think Gary Payton was a factor To this pro long series
Justin Riley
Well, I mean I think maybe complacency mass set in a little bit but I just think those bulls teams were just were too dialed in to allow complacency on the court. You saw how passionate and how fired up that Michael Jordan rest those guys were and that’s to the point to wear you know in practice every day Michael Jordan is was just seriously owned them and braiding them
Santiago Leon
which we’ll talk about but well don’t want that next we’ll talk about that next interesting.
Justin Riley
I just think the the science are there. They got there for a reason they were good. I mean, they were named debtless shrimp. We had Gary Payton, we had
Santiago Leon
young team. Shawn, Canada,
Justin Riley
we had Shawn camp.
Victor Arocho
Sidney Sidney Moncrief.
Justin Riley
Right, they were good. They got really good. So there’s, I mean, there’s no reason why they didn’t just steal two games. They were good enough to win two games. Now had they employed To the surfaces of Mr. Peyton on game one, you probably looked at a pretty. You were looked at dogfights, which you were looked at
Santiago Leon
so the director showed Michael Jordan. What Gary Payton says that that hairpin and says it took a toll on Jordan. Jordan said the glove I have no problem with the glove. I had no problem with Gary Payton. Why was that so significant? Everyone was loving it. We felt like maybe Michael Jordan was challenged. We thought about that.
Victor Arocho
I think Michael was downplaying it.
Justin Riley
I think he was down playing with it again to I think maybe Jordan the quote unquote, slow down just a little bit just because he had to make an adjustment to gay paint painting being placed on him. But in the end, Jordan was Jordan.
Santiago Leon
Yeah, this is one like the biggest revelation I see from this documentary, every documentary every episode has Give me some revelation. This is one of them. Plus the baseball one. There’s a there’s a lot of them. A lot of mysteries.
Victor Arocho
What is it?
Santiago Leon
No, this one will like, you know Gary Payton, Scotty pippins contract issue. Well, a little bit more Jerry Krause. Jerry Krause is like the villain. He should be he’s an idiot. Well, there you have it. Now we know.
Victor Arocho
Okay. Am I sorry about the guy’s passing his family but I mean, you know, think I mean, he listened to me. The guy built a great team. He did. There’s no doubt about it. But at what point? Do you let your ego get in the way to ruin a team? Like that’s what he did, but at the right time, and Jackson and Jackson. Jackson. Phil Jackson’s got nine titles dude. Wasn’t 11 No, that doesn’t. That doesn’t count
Santiago Leon
with an X and B 12. No, b 11. Yeah,
Victor Arocho
he’s around 11 or whatever. The deal is that was just a bad decision. I don’t understand that. Right? It was just bad. I think that he was and then the guys knew it man. You know, you can’t work for someone and your whole team can’t stand. So.
Santiago Leon
So after went in Seattle, there’s still this moment about Michael Jordan hugging the trophy, and it looped back to his dad. This is his first championship without his father. The last one was back in 93. A couple months before he died. Justin, how sentimental was that for you?
Justin Riley
Bro, I was in my feelings. And that was that was just tough to watch. Today was Father’s Day. That was on Father’s
Santiago Leon
Day. I remember that. Yes.
Justin Riley
I mean, think about it. Man. At the NBA Finals. You got the pressure of the NBA Finals on you. You got the pressure, the fact that your dad is passed away and his father’s day and then use to overcome all that to win a title I mean that just wow. It was just mind blowing captivating moment. And just to see Jordan, break down in a fetal position just bawling, man, I just humanized him, it just grabbed your heart. Justin.
Victor Arocho
He also could add to the fact a couple things real quick one, it was Father’s Day. Yeah. And two he could have lost because there was another game. That was game six.
Santiago Leon
Yeah because that became seven. What
Victor Arocho
you gonna wait to get them and he wanted on Father’s Day in a game six.
Santiago Leon
What happen to Gary that day. What what happened to Gary Payton that day? couldn’t stop Michael. The Globe came off the globe came off. Okay, so this is the last segment part of the show. And it’s the trash talking of Michael Jordan. This is another big revelation. I’m Jordan Bullis. Scott Burrell. You saw some clips of that. He would trash talk to Scottie Pippen and punch Steve Kerr sporting In extreme competitiveness on a constant basis, Jordan’s leadership can be questioned. He says, I want them to understand what it felt like to be in the trenches. And if you don’t understand, then you’re not going to respond when the war starts. I could make their thoughts about those quotes and that scene in the show. Victor, Justin, hey, I’m here. Go ahead. So we thought about that scene. Obviously. We saw Michael Jordan, you know, trash talk. He will, I guess I believe will be a strong word. He will punch Steve curb. Worried thoughts about that scene was that surprising?
Justin Riley
Well, at first glance, it is kind of surprising because up until the series Michael Jordan was always made out in this Cookie Cutter image of can’t do wrong, Mister do everything right, wholesome, you know, yada yada, but then it shows a super competitive side of him. And it and then it just shows just how real things got back in that day, man, there wasn’t any time on that court for pansies or sissies, it was it was all out. And you know, in this day and age, it can be looked at as bullying. But back on there in that era, you know, when we were coming up playing sports, that was just everyday life, you know, you went to it, he went to war with your brothers and that’s what you faced every single day. And Michael was right man. He was trying to get them motivated in the shape mentally to build a handle the stress and the pressures of winning a championship. I don’t think
Santiago Leon
if he didn’t do that, I don’t think the bulls will be that strong and winning.
Justin Riley
Well, it’s actually you say that it’s actually true because Bill went and came back and credited Michael for the success because of what he did there. He said, You know, I didn’t realize that at the time what was what it was doing. But then looking back I see that’s exactly why we were where we were was because of what Michael was doing to us. Victor Are you there? Um,
Victor Arocho
yeah. Connections going down
Santiago Leon
You want me to call your phone instead.
Victor Arocho
It was a question. No, no, I’m good. Can you hear me?
Santiago Leon
Yes, but I call with Dolly into your phone.
Victor Arocho
That’s better. I’m good now. I think that that’s First of all, jack. Phil Jackson wanted that. Steve Kern backs. stinker put some mandroid ahead. Like your pain and joy to him. Yeah, but Steve Busch because Jackson called ticky tack files with your to Michael’s money. his mental state was getting pissed off and pissed off and pissed off. And then something happened and Kurt pushed them then he pushed. So well, practice. I mean, you think not hate the office stuck at that level. I could see it. I, I wish I wish that would be acceptable in the workplace environment.
Santiago Leon
That would be interesting. That would be interesting, correct? Yeah, that’s something you can do today. I don’t know. I don’t know. I mean, LeBron did it with Kyrie a couple years ago with Cleveland. So it’s possible that is still being done in the NFL and the NBA. Perhaps NFL as well. I’m moving. Moving along, you know, looking towards a future episode this weekend’s episode nine and 10 the final two episodes. Of course, where we’re going to see is the game with the Pacers. And obviously the NBA Finals games you talk Justin What do you think’s gonna happen this weekend for the last dance
Justin Riley
just more of what happened behind closed doors being revealed and you know that those series with the jazz are saying our favorite series I want a bulls fan coming up actually despise them but respect them and out but I was pulling for the Utah Jazz and I really wanted calm alone and john started to get arraying and like course they couldn’t do it because the bowls weren’t gonna be denied. But that was truly one of the best series I’ve ever witnessed as a sports fan. I’m just I’m really kind of looking forward to to unraveling more secrets if you want to call it that and just learn more about the the the ins and outs of those series. Victor
Victor Arocho
Derek Carr
Santiago Leon
Victor, let me let me restart this call for you hear me? Let me call your phone because it’s really bad. Good. Okay, I’m gonna call them. Justin still here,
Justin Riley
there. Yeah, I’m really anxious to see exactly what the relationship was between Michael and his crew and call him alone. And just to kind of see if there was any, you know, hate there or if it was just if it was like a brother versus brother type thing. It was kind of how they interacted
Santiago Leon
against each other. I wonder if they’re gonna have a another Jared crossing at the end.
Justin Riley
Well, I think that you kind of have to just kind of brings everything full circle. I don’t see the conclusion to the series without touching on that and having like, more
Santiago Leon
victories back. So Victor. Oh, great. So Victor, obviously, what are your expectations for this weekend?
Victor Arocho
I think they’re gonna do they’re gonna crush Jerry Kraus. I think Aaron was gonna Realize that teams should never been broken apart. If Michael didn’t leave, they would have probably one eight, maybe nine. I’m with Justin at that time, obviously, you know, you know I didn’t like Jordan. I like Kobe either. Now I have nothing but admiration for him. But I wanted Stockton to win it was almost like Andy Reid, you want an Andy Reid the winner Super Bowl I wanted Stockton and Malone to win, to to win the series. But I just think this weekend it’s going to culminate to the fact that Jordan was ultimate competitor man I don’t think you know you they can say whatever they want about him but afterwards they all now are thanking Him and you know, that happens in life right sometimes you’re tough parent you kids later on realized you know what, I’m glad you the way you work because I can see how my French ended up you know,
Santiago Leon
I will definitely like to see what happens after they win the NBA Finals because we know they win their six championship and of course Michael Jordan didn’t He did not. He did not reveal his retirement till like six months later until January of 1999. I like to see the show that footage and what was his thought process? If there’s any revelation of him coming back, either back to the balls or to a different team.
Victor Arocho
He was done i think i think he just wanted to enjoy the championship
Santiago Leon
he did with with a this show a one scene I think gay was in these last two episodes. him laying down on the couch and saying I think it’s time I think it’s just, it’s just yeah, that phone squad.
Victor Arocho
But we’ll see he was I think he was hoping that crowd we would have made a deal with Jackson.
Santiago Leon
Yeah, that was
Victor Arocho
Scott. Scott. He was still playing. So it wasn’t like he wasn’t gonna play.
Santiago Leon
Yeah, and I remember watching one YouTube where Jordan would only play if Phil Jackson was around or this other coach in North Carolina which which is, which is women’s college coach, which I think he was Way too old to coach at
Victor Arocho
DC
Justin Riley
Well, the question though is, if they would have retained Jackson, would they still have done right by Scotty? Would they have done in the contract? That was what he deserved or would they have continued in the same way and then ultimately lost him?
Santiago Leon
lost to well like to see that revelation will like to see there obviously Scotty was 32.
Victor Arocho
Lost Oh, Justin. I was saying that
Justin Riley
just but let’s just say argument’s sake they were able to retain Jackson. But would they have been able to retain their services of Scotty with with uh, with Jerry Krause? And the the bowls organization have paid him has do or would they have continued in the same mindset and ultimately lost him? I think
Victor Arocho
the problem was Jheri curls, right? So at the end of the day, if, you know was Jheri curl, so if If they made a deal with Jackson, trust me, that team was gonna make a deal with Pippin. Because the entire team was they felt bad for Scotty. Like Kareem said it he was making more money and the cool coach was making more money than him. I mean, he was still the star. So there’s no problem with him even sit now because it was like, shoot, you know, and Jordan was pygmies. You know, Jordan also wasn’t right. You know, making crazy money is making more than endorsements. But you know, at one point he was
Santiago Leon
we lost Victor again. But the feud between Krause and and Phil Jackson was pretty deep Justin, and I really think it was not salvageable at any moment. I think it was a workman
Justin Riley
Yeah. Yeah, it was. First thing is, you know if, if it would have been resolved, you’re looking at it having a major ripple effect in the NBA and transition into that next Part of that next decade the next part of history because let’s just say for sake of argument, Phil Jackson does come back does that Lakers team that won all those championships exists? Now, more than likely doubtful but yeah, they would have had Shaq and
Santiago Leon
he has had Coby but Jackson was that missing piece it’s a complete
Justin Riley
race but also but also to is not only Jackson Jackson also brought over players that he had on his bulls team on Harper that Laker squad Yeah. So you’re looking at having a major ripple effect had that team got disbanded.
Victor Arocho
One thing I gotta tell you about?
Santiago Leon
Well, Victor is definitely going through technical difficulties on his end. All right, but closing words. Justin, what are your closing words? over so far in the last even though you already said it but closing words of your thoughts about everything last few episodes,
Justin Riley
as it’s just great TV is, is phenomenal just to relive, arguably one of the greatest areas of basketball there ever was in sports, really. It’s just been awesome an eye opening just to see, everything has been going on in the inside. And like I said at the beginning of this show, I’ve come to light that I’m watching it happen before my eyes like it’s new, all over again. But this is also great, too, because Victor touched on a little bit earlier that is given the young people a chance to see who Jordan was. And not just Jordan, but what the NBA really was, you know, back in the day and, and I think that the young young folks really need to see what what this league was really about. And who these these people were. I think the game is completely different now. It’s a different kind of sport altogether. I don’t think it’s the As good as what what it was back in the Jordan era. I missed those days I definitely miss it from a defensive standpoint and a toughness standpoint. That’s a whole nother topic altogether the broadcast altogether. But it just it just gives us a great look of a an era gone by one of the greatest times in sports. Victor rojo.
Santiago Leon
Any closing words over episode seven and eight. And if there’s not here anyways, let’s close the show with this. You and I, Justin, which is fine because I got to go soon. Um, random question. The poll was yesterday closed over the night, who was the best MBAs number two and the choices are Scottie Pippen Kareem Abdul Jabbar, john Stockton or Klay Thompson, who’s your pick?
Justin Riley
Well, yeah, john Stockton was is probably one of the most underrated have the greatest players to ever play the game. But Scottie Pippen was just such a huge factor in those bulls championships. And without Scottie, they wouldn’t have won you know, they wouldn’t have won with just Michael. The dynamic duo. guys got that championship on the Mount those championships on the mantle of the bulls trophy trophy case. And this is Scott was doing so unselfishly to underpaid and facing a lot of adversity. The guy was just phenomenal. There in his talent, the bowls and quite frankly, during that era, no one can close. And this is the poll from our Twitter Skype in 150 8% Kareem Abdul Jabbar at second at 21% john Stockton at 16% and Klay Thompson at
Santiago Leon
high percent. So quite quite interesting. poll numbers course the Twitter poll is Closed. And tomorrow we’ll have another poll tomorrow but I can’t reveal yet. Justin Riley what is the best way to reach you online? Well on Twitter you can reach me at Justin Riley seven and then on Instagram at Justin Riley underscore seven also helped contribute a lot to the sports cast on Twitter and Instagram as at the sports cast one. And of course you can reach us at the sports cast dotnet the sports cast dotnet and as what Justin said you can go to our Twitter at the sports cast one we’ve been live tweeting the last dance these past couple weekends really glad and we’ll do it again this weekend. The last two episodes of the last day. The biggest thing going on in sports and the full draft might be debatable up there as number one, but the last dance might be surpassing because there’s more hours in it. And of course the last dance is this Sunday at nine o’clock on ESPN or if you want the clean version, it’ll be on ESPN two is not on Netflix till July but if you have no Netflix international meaning if you live outside of the US, you can watch it there. And it’ll be on ESPN Plus, I think till next year for some reason. Anyways, I’m looking forward to it. This is one of the best two episodes. I mean, like the best series I’ve ever seen from the NBA, and they said this could have been longer than 10 episodes, and I wish it was because they could, for sure stretch it out. Justin Riley, thanks for coming on to the sports cast.
Justin Riley
Glad to do it, man.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Santiago Leon is the Founder and CEO of the Sports Cast. He covers NFL, NBA, and world soccer. He’s also founder of sleon productions, which he specializes in technology and serves clients with solutions to make their business grow.
